discussion on science related issues

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:44 am

Actually, the main claim for global warming is that the weather would go to furthur extremes, not just warmth. I always picture though, that in the spring and early fall there's this scientist running around saying it's "EXTREMELY Mild"!

And I don't doubt that the greenhouse effect can cause changes in weather patterns, I just don't think humanity has any effect on it. We are responisble for .06% of all CO2 emissions I think. (The number's around there). The bigger problems are polution and energy conservation rather than Carbon emissions. And Global warming? I think Earth goes through 200+ year long weather cycles and all records don't go back far enough to show anything conclusive. Maybe in another 100 years the temperatures will settle for a while.

My main concern is the certainty everyone has. The top scientist researching this stuff all seem to disagree with each other. Most of them will admit that they don't know for certain. But everyone on the street is touting it as rock-hard facts, or complete BS. I'll admit right now that I don't know and I could certainly be wrong.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents...

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Vivienne Vex on Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:55 am

Then answer me this TJ. Why are the icecaps melting? Along with all the snow the US had recently?

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Smashy B on Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:35 am

I think global warming is a hoax. First off, there have been 5 major Ice ages in the Earth's past, and humans weren't really around to fuck shit up then. So in that regard, the change in the Earth's temp or whatever is a natural part of it's life/cycle/bleh. Also, after Climate gate, where emails were leaked about evidence of global warming being fudged... yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that global warming is really not as bad as Al Gore and others say make it out to be (also, was it coincidence that Al Gore decided to not go to Copenhagen after that controversy erupted?).

I agree with TheTJ in that pollution and energy conservation are bigger worries.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:14 pm

Viero wrote:Then answer me this TJ. Why are the icecaps melting? Along with all the snow the US had recently?

There is no explenation, and that INCLUDES global warming. See, the weather extremes is a catch all. It allows people to say "Man, look at this crazy weather. Must be global warming." If the weather is normal or mild they can just point at wherever it's bad. It's not that bad weather is on the rise, just the attention it's getting. And I did explain the ica caps. I think it's a pattern of nature. I mean think about it. Millenia ago, Ice covered most of Northern America. What caused THAT Ice to melt?

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Vivienne Vex on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:17 pm

Well then if it is a cycle of nature, how did polar bears come back after all their land melted away?
They would have eventually drowned and they would have all died out.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:22 pm

There have been periods in earths history (Recent history in the large scale of things) Where there WERE no Ice caps. How did they get there in the FIRST place?

Besides, even if the ice caps melt they might make it in the northern territories of Canada or Russia...

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Avalanche on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:24 pm

yes or my beloved conquered Holland drowns....

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Smashy B on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:28 pm

Viero wrote:Well then if it is a cycle of nature, how did polar bears come back after all their land melted away?
They would have eventually drowned and they would have all died out.
As much as I really don't want to debate this, I have to say I'm really not sure what your argument even is.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Vivienne Vex on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:31 pm

my argument was Polar bears live on ice caps melt. Ice caps melt. polar bears have no where to go. Polar bears die out.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Blue Madness on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:39 pm

Let's have a minute of silence for the poor polar bears. *silence*

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:40 pm

..........
.......
.......
...*Cough*...
Oop, sorry...
......
......
Ok, minutes done.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Smashy B on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:40 pm

Ok, that's not really an argument.

But, if I may be blunt, let them die. In the world we live in it's survival of the fittest. The strong live to pass on their superior genes and the weak die out. Tough shit for the polar bear; I really don't think there's much, if anything, we can do about it.

Ninja'd twice, thanks.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Vivienne Vex on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:42 pm

my point is not they die out, my point is if the ice caps melted before how the fuck are there still polar bears?

EDIT: I'm with smash on this about the polar bear thing.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:44 pm

Same way they got there in the first place. There have been points in history where there (And I can't stress this enough) WERE NO ICE CAPS. And yet now there are. Even if the polar caps DO melt entirely, that's no indication that they won't return. And the polar bears might have gotten there by crossing the glaciers during an ice age.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Avalanche on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:46 pm

if the warming of the polar caps goes slow enough, the polar bears who are good at swimming will probably gain advantage and spread their genes more... Which might give a interesting step in evolution.

Soon my plan for shark-bears will come to fruitation.......

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Smashy B on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:49 pm

Viero wrote:my point is not they die out, my point is if the ice caps melted before how the fuck are there still polar bears?
Ohhh, I get ya. Maybe they just inhabited the area that was slowing freezing over thousands of year alowing enough time for adaption to undergo its natural process. Honestly, though, I have no fuckin clue.

ninja'd: Avalanche may be onto something.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:51 pm

"Shark-Bears Nature's dealiest killers. They can catch fish to eat, while swimming underwater. Join the Discovery channel in a week long series on these deadly beasts. Shark-Bear week."

...I'd watch that.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  DarkFalco on Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:39 pm

Viero wrote:my point is not they die out, my point is if the ice caps melted before how the fuck are there still polar bears?

EDIT: I'm with smash on this about the polar bear thing.
plus durning the last "hot" age i'm not so certain there even were polar bears...or at least the variety we know. the last one was a loooooong time ago. evolution can change pretty fast in that time. I don't think they came about until a more recent era. In fact i think i remember reading somwhere that polar bears were regular bears that slowly moved from the northern lands to the ice over a period of time. Slowly as they moved over the ice their fur changed to become warmer. It also changed to help them blend with their environment, or at least the ones that blended in more survived more and passes on their genes. So yeah i'm pretty sure there weren't polar bears then anyway.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Ansem on Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:18 pm

fuck polar bears, they're not even funny or anything.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Hans on Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:43 pm

I'd like to quote something I heard on the news, "Global temperatures are higher than they have been in 100 years, sure evidence of global warming." Think about it.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  TheTJ on Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:58 pm

That's... That's just silly.

Look, corralation does not imply causation. Just because it's hotter then it's been in 100 years doesn't mean there's proof of global warming. It's taken on a ridiculously small scale to be attributed to global warming for one thing. I mean, if there were records that went back further than 200 years we might have stronger evidence for or against. Say if for 1000 years the global temperature was dead even, then cars were invented and it shot up. Even then, that's not proof, but it'd be more than they have now.

Look, read a Michael Crichton book called "State of Fear", look into the arguement on both sides, actually RESEARCH this thing if you going to say it's fact when even it's biggest (Sane) reseachers say it's a theory. Most people blindly assume it's true for... Really I don't know why they assume it, there's no solid evidence that I've ever seen. In any case, if you want a strong arguement for a cause, read into it.

On a side note: I'm pretty sure Hans is trolling and will no longer feed him.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Hans on Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:52 pm

I was hoping people would notice that if it was this hot 100 years ago, then does that mean global warming was happening back then too? Just pointing out a fallacy.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Quaetam on Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:48 pm

Honestly I believe in global warming, but I think it's been grossly exaggerated. Reports saying the trend will be irreversable by 2050 and such don't seem entirely plausible, especially now that we know about it.

Whether or not we actually are causing global warming, we still need an alternate energy source: We're running out of oil as it is. Arguing about it does nothing when we'll solve it (if it exists) by doing something that needs to be done either way.

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  DRTJR on Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:08 pm

Here's an idea Natural gas, we have a ton of it, and it's better for everybody except Canada(where the USA get a lot of it's Oil)

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Re: discussion on science related issues

Post  Raya on Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:40 am

TheTJ wrote: The top scientist researching this stuff all seem to disagree with each other.

As a scientist, let me just say that the field of science is just one big playground. "My theory is right!" "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" "If you believe it I won't be your friend anymore!" "Your mum is fat!" etc etc. The childishness physically hurts your head.

Viero wrote:Well then if it is a cycle of nature, how did polar bears come back after all their land melted away?
They would have eventually drowned and they would have all died out.

Polar bears live on solid land too, y'know. Plus they're still so closely related to the brown bear they can interbreed. Polar bears are a fairly recent species.

Anyway, global warming. I believe it's happening, but the human contribution is minimal. It's human vanity again; we love to imagine we're all powerful gods capable of destroying the planet. We can't do shit. Yes we can cause minor variations (the fall of the Aztec empire contributed to the Little Ice Age of the 16th-19th century), but quite simply solar activity, Milankovich cycles (how the Earth travels round the sun), the Earth's wobble and volcanic activity do far more to our climate than we ever could.

A few points to make:

- We're actually colder then we were 2000 years ago. In England the Romans had vinyards all over the country. Now you struggle to establish them even right on the south coast.

- Think we might be warming up because we've just come out of a miniture ice age? The Little Ice Age was so cold Europeon cities used to hold frost faires in winter, when the rivers froze so solid you could hold carnivals on them. It's why ice skating was so big in Holland; the canals used to freeze over all the time. Good luck with that now.

- 50 years ago people were freaking out about global cooling. Apparently glaciers would wipe out northern civilisation. There were talks on pumping CO2 into the atmosphere to reverse it. In 50 more years we'll go back to panicking about it again.

- Earth's climate cycles can be divided into hothouse and coldhouse periods. Right now we're in a coldhouse period. If you look at the history of the Earth the average temperature is a lot higher than now. Ice on the poles is an unusual feature.

- The climate swings wildly anyway. Problem is is that humans only have a memory going back three generations. If it didn't happen in your grandparent's time, then it never happened at all. That's why people build on active volcanoes and think that since it didn't erupt in your grandfather's time, it won't erupt in yours. We forget that the climate has changed significantly in human history, so when it happens in our lifetime we shit bricks.

I do think there's one benefit to the global warming panic; it scares people into looking after the environment, which is very important. Say "recycle, it's good for the Earth" and nobody will do it. Say "recycle, or YOU WILL DIE" and people pay attention. Eh, the public were never smart in the first place.

Also I totally agree about how annoying it is people use the present weather as evidence of global warming. It's awful over here. "Oh no, we're having the hottest/coldest/wettest/driest season in history! Global warming!". Well gee, it's nothing to do with the fact we're a small island on the edge of a big ocean lying right under the Arctic Circle that gives us changable weather, eh?

/rant

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