The Trial of the Troll

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SnakeInABox on Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:27 pm

hemad. Very mad.

Though yea, I didnt expect you to actually leave at any time.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SurgePox on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:11 pm

Warchamp7 wrote:
Omicron Austin wrote:
Warchamp7 wrote:Kay, I'll show I don't care and leave this thread as it is. You guys can enjoy your circlejerk

>implying this didn't happen
>mfw half of the posts after that post are Warchamp

I lied, how mad are you?
Wait, how does pointing out your "joke" make him mad? Warchamp, you crazy.

I think it's pretty clear that the consensus here is that fobbs' behavior, according to the forums, is excusable. Do you guys think this means we need to rewrite some of the more frivolous rules? The rules in question are minor, and if they're minor enough not to merit following, it would seem fair not to hold anyone to them, am i right?

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SnakeInABox on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:27 pm

I like that mindgame you just tried to throw at us.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Smashy B on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:31 pm

SurgePox wrote:The rules in question are minor, and if they're minor enough not to merit following, it would seem fair not to hold anyone to them, am i right?
If there are no rules, does this mean I can ban people for the helluvit now?

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SurgePox on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:37 pm

smashbro wrote:
SurgePox wrote:The rules in question are minor, and if they're minor enough not to merit following, it would seem fair not to hold anyone to them, am i right?
If there are no rules, does this mean I can ban people for the helluvit now?
no.

This question is a question we have to ask if we're going to justify not enforcing the rules. We could also try to institute some kind of warning system, but that strikes me as being needlessly complicated, as we're better off just deciding which rules we don't care about enforcing anymore.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SnakeInABox on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:39 pm

We enforce all the rules just as before. Fobby hasnt broken anything severely. And if he has, obviously the majority of the forum sees him as an exception.

Hes, thats right. An exception to the rules.

Deal with it.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Vivienne Vex on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:48 pm

No one should be a exception Snake no matter who they are be it Fobby or one of the mods. He obviously broke a lot of rules over and over.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SnakeInABox on Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:53 pm

Cool story bro, and while I mostly agree, Fobby is still an exception for me. I take the rules seriously, and want to make this as clean a forum as I can. But Fobby is an exception.


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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Quaetam on Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:03 pm

SnakeInABox wrote:We enforce all the rules just as before. Fobby hasnt broken anything severely. And if he has, obviously the majority of the forum sees him as an exception.

Hes, thats right. An exception to the rules.

Deal with it.

Before I say anything keep in mind that I'm on the fence here. I can't really decide where I stand, it's very hard for me to condemn anyone just because that's the kind of guy I am, and furthermore I don't see his behavior as TOO egregious myself, but I see why people would find Fobbs offensive. I'm not going to vote permaban because I don't see his rulebreaking as terrible enough to merit such action yet, but I'm biased. That's my perspective, and I'm really not bothered by him. From a largely objective standpoint, the fact that the majority sees him as an exception doesn't mean that the minority's problems with him should be ignored. The real question here should be if his offenses are enough to merit a temporary or permanent ban, or, as Surge said, whether they should be considered offenses in the first place.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  TD260 on Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:15 pm

*slams desk*

We CANNOT throw the entire rule book out the window on behalf of one person. HOWEVER. I vote that we continue enforcement of the rules TO THE LETTER.

Simply? If fobby breaks a rule, he gets banned. If he trolls? Deal with it. If he starts breaking rules? Ban him. Simple as that. The rules exist for a reason.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  TheTJ on Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:02 pm

Yeah, but the letter of the law seems a bit harsh. I'm more in support of enforcing the spirit of the law. Under the letter of the law, statements such as this could lead to a banning.

wrote:chocobos are gay... that is all.

Now, no one here should take offense to that, but that's still a little bit against the rules. I'd rather mods do things on a case by case basis and decide if someone actually deserves to be banned. Which I'm pretty sure is what they do anyway. The question here is if Fobby deserves a ban. I don't think so. Maybe work on sentance structure and spelling a little bit.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Quaetam on Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:04 pm

Like I said, I think the big issue here is whether his offenses are egregious enough to be bannable on either a temporary or permanent basis. Making an exception is something we shouldn't do, because frankly that breaks our standards and makes the rules flexible, intangible things, and brings their enforcement into question.

And you guys are missing a major point here: violations of the rules aren't always banworthy, merely severe, multiple violations. Have his violations been repeated? Yes. Have they been severe or banworthy? Debatable. I don't find them worthy of a permaban, personally, but as I said two posts up I'm biased, and the fact that the majority of us don't take offense doesn't mean the feelings of the minority can be ignored completely. I'd say a nice long tempban at most, but nothing irrevocable.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Omicron Austin on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:03 am

I'd still like to see examples of his offenses that were deemed "banworthy."

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SurgePox on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:20 am

I've been doing a lot of reflection upon the situation, and determining how we figure out what is and isn't banworthy. Here's the structure I am leaning towards now. Rules are divided into two tiers: Minor and major. rules under the minor tier will be rules that aren't particularly disruptive in a single instance, but are, if repeated constantly or committed by everyone, disruptive. So, these will result in a ban or punishment if you continue despite being told to stop or warned by moderation staff, but will not result in an instant ban. Major infractions can result in an instant ban if deemed necessary. This way, we aren't punishing people for small issues unless they get a warning, in which case they are violating the rules by disobeying mod requests. So, everyone wins, we keep the rules around to be enforced, but allow ourselves the leeway to have a bit of fun.
This would mean no more situations like this, which i think will be to the agreement of most of the members here, and rather, and understanding: the mods will make the decisions they feel are best, and the forumers will just sort of be okay with that. In essence, nothing will change, we just have a bit more structure for determining what's banworthy and what isn't.

discuss/improve/rip on/whatever

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Perry on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:44 am

I still think this is getting way more thought than it deserves. If one man can force everything up to the rules to be altered, this is going too far.
I appreciate the gesture of the moderators to want to have shared this with the entire forum, and that tthey are now discussing along. But the way this thread is going is just too much over such a simple matter.

Please just make a decision and don't start contemplating/changing whatever.
This is just way too big of a fuss over something way too little.
Relativate, people! D: Look at what we're discussing and whats being said.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Raya on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:06 am

SurgePox wrote:
I think it's pretty clear that the consensus here is that fobbs' behavior, according to the forums, is excusable.

According to the poll's current standing nearly two thirds want him gone. The third that want him to stay are the most vocal. Thought I motion for a permaban, from the poll it would be fairer for a temp ban and have that be a literal last warning.

As for rule changes, that's probably a discussion to not have on here.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  DRTJR on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:24 am

A plurality want him here, and thus the group with the most persons in it wants to keep fobbs

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Perry on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:26 am

I'm sorry, I thought that with a poll, the option with the most voters would win?
That's normally how it goes, right? So what is this with trying to go against that and trying to get him gone anyway, Raya?

If you were gonna make it gone vs. not gone, you should've opted those in the poll. Not going back on that now and start adding the ban options up together, that's rather bullshit.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Ansem on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:32 am

agreed. The let him stay votes are 1/3 yes, but the other 2/3 is spread out over 3 other options, not mashed together.
But, it looks like he can stay, yay! Rule clarification=good idea, and if he starts to violate those, ban the fucker.
Same goes for Mr. Box and the guy with the stupid hat.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Raya on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:33 am

Perrytheplatypus wrote:I'm sorry, I thought that with a poll, the option with the most voters would win?
That's normally how it goes, right? So what is this with trying to go against that and trying to get him gone anyway, Raya?

If you were gonna make it gone vs. not gone, you should've opted those in the poll. Not going back on that now and start adding the ban options up together, that's rather bullshit.

Are you accusing me of trying to swing this, Perry? I'm fairly pissed if you are.

I'm merely pointing out that people are saying that the majority want him to stay, when according to the votes the majority want him gone. The quibble is that there's three different options for banning that are dividing the votes.

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FUCK YOU RAYA.

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Perry on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:42 am

And I'd be fairly pissed if you were. Let alone incredibly dissappointed. So I guess we're even there.

All I'm saying is that if you wanted to count that as something valid, you should've made them only one option from the start.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Weldar on Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:46 am

SurgePox wrote:I've been doing a lot of reflection upon the situation, and determining how we figure out what is and isn't banworthy. Here's the structure I am leaning towards now. Rules are divided into two tiers: Minor and major. rules under the minor tier will be rules that aren't particularly disruptive in a single instance, but are, if repeated constantly or committed by everyone, disruptive. So, these will result in a ban or punishment if you continue despite being told to stop or warned by moderation staff, but will not result in an instant ban. Major infractions can result in an instant ban if deemed necessary. This way, we aren't punishing people for small issues unless they get a warning, in which case they are violating the rules by disobeying mod requests. So, everyone wins, we keep the rules around to be enforced, but allow ourselves the leeway to have a bit of fun.
This would mean no more situations like this, which i think will be to the agreement of most of the members here, and rather, and understanding: the mods will make the decisions they feel are best, and the forumers will just sort of be okay with that. In essence, nothing will change, we just have a bit more structure for determining what's banworthy and what isn't.

discuss/improve/rip on/whatever

Isn't this pretty much how we handle things anyway it's just we don't have any exact division in place. Look at the example in TJ's post, yeah that could be against the rules (well maybe a slightly harsher example is better here) but we're never gonna ban someone for just that. But if someone kept making posts like that they'd certainly receive a warning to tone it down a bit and if they keep it up then they may be smacked with a temp ban. The only way someone would get perm banned for it is if they just keep on doing it over and over even after being warned/temp banned for it several times.
And even then I dunno about categorizing rules like this. The big thing isn't what rules are being broken but how they're doing it. Say for example a new guys comes along and starts taking part in the discussion in a thread but does so in a way that's using lots of hateful comments, flaming people, racist remarks etc. Now imagine another newbie just randomly i9nsulting people and making such remarks offensive remarks in some threads where it's totally off topic. Both are breaking the same rule(s) but I'd say the two deserve to be treated in different ways. I'd warn the former and tell him how he's acting unacceptable and he needs to change it while I'd probably just ban the latter straight up. The first at least seems to be a person who's trying to take a part in this community while the other just comes off as an obnoxious troll trying to stir up shit for the sake of it. Just leave things as they are, judge it on a case by case basis, generally giving warnings first but handing out instant bans in extreme cases. I mean when you really look at it the only things that really tend to get banned instantly are spambots, even famous characters like Matti were given a chance and only banned when they made it clear they had no intention of obeying the warnings.

And eh I've seen plenty of polls with multiple options that go down to a finals between the top two options when things are fairly spread out, never seemed to be that unusual or unethical of a procedure to me. But really the main point if this wasn't so much deciding his fate as seeing the public's opinions on this issue. And yeah while letting him go is the top option the results show there is a substantial chunk of the community who want him out for some period of time/feel his recent actions deserve some consequence. The said eh I'd be happy with either a round 2 of voting or just letting him go for now but having him be on thin ice, after all this never was going to be a full pardoning or anything.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  SnakeInABox on Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:39 am

Perrytheplatypus wrote:I'm sorry, I thought that with a poll, the option with the most voters would win?
That's normally how it goes, right? So what is this with trying to go against that and trying to get him gone anyway, Raya?

If you were gonna make it gone vs. not gone, you should've opted those in the poll. Not going back on that now and start adding the ban options up together, that's rather bullshit.

Whatever Perry is rudely insinuating toward Raya, I join him.

Wholeheartedly.


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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Raya on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:00 am

SnakeInABox wrote:
Whatever Perry is rudely insinuating toward Raya, I join him.

Wholeheartedly.

Oh please Snake, the only reason you're joining in this attack is because it supports your side of the fence. It doesn't change the fact that more people voted him banned than keep him.

Y'know what? Fine. If you want to split hairs over this so be it. Quite frankly the only way you won't quibble over it would be if the ban voters cancelled whatever vote they made and put it on a single ban option. I didn't make the poll, and in hindsight it would have been better to have just the two options, but I'm fairly sure none of us want a second round of voting. But if Fobby stays he's on very thin ice.

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King Avalanche:
Spoiler:

FUCK YOU RAYA.

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU

AND

FUUUUUUCKKKKK YOOOOOUUUUU

the one time I trust you with my back and you plant a dagger in it.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

Post  Avalanche on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:02 am

I'm okay with the notion of tempbanning as final warning, as opted previous page. The majority wants to see AN form of punishment over letting him off the hook. Surely the pro-fobby side realizes this as well.

And people; no need to get so fired up, both sides. If Fobby was voting for anyone of us, he'd press permaban for lulz. If the pro Fobby side wants to defend a guy like that; be my guest. I voted tempban because it seems most reasonable to me.

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Re: The Trial of the Troll

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