TWBB Mafia Game 20: Those who Challenge Fate-ENDGAME-A Kingdom Worth Living For (Thread 1)

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Post  DarkFalco on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:31 pm

and you. you're another thing snake. i have no freaking clue what your role is. i'm guessing it's homestuck related like TD mentioned but i have no background with it to get an idea. all i know is that it's nothing i know. But i do know that everything you have posted so far is just to distract and mess with the thread in an attempt to get people to notice you and well...it's kinda failing. Sounds to me like everyone is figuring you for the whole "lynch and win" joker that tends to show up in the games often. I'd tend to agree. That or you're a trolling mafian. Yours and sah's roles i'd like to try to figure out more, seeing as they seem to be the only ones that need acting out
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Post  SurgePox on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:38 pm

Okay, thank you DF for confirming any thoughts I had as to who is mafia this game.

First of all, the arguement that amaterasu being a good character in fluff does not necessitate them being a town aligned class. Roles borrowed from other games have to have their alignments or other characterists tweaked for balance purposes. More often than not, the most creative roles are town roles, leaving the host of allstars the task of balancing some roles over in one direction or the other. I don't base arguements or logic on fluff, I look for actual gameplay, and right now, it's pointing me towards you and avos...

...who you defended, and I'd say with faulty logic. You claim that his pulling his vote off of you necessitates that the two of you are innocent, but that's affirming that 1. you are innocent, which is not a given, and 2. that only townies are quick to switch votes and 3. in a game with wide timezone variance, the timing of pulling your votes is indicitive of who is more on board with arguements presented.

We can't assume that you are necessarily innocent, even in light of your claim, for reasons presented above. The core reason why that arguement is wrong, though, is Avos quickswitching his vote is not a necessary condition of him being a townie. Mafians may vote for comrades early so that in the even that comrade goes down, they look good for having been one of those who voted them down. When there was a chance for the vote to get peeled off of you, that would be the ideal time for the mafian comrade to move their vote, to start momentum in their favor. If anything, I'd say the maneuver that you presented is more indicative of a mafian/mafian relationship between you and avos, and not a townie reacting to another townie, but I think it's really an entirely moot point because people vote when they are online, and with an international community, that widely varies. The first to vote is just whoever was online, we aren't all viewing the thread simultaneously.

So, I'm forced to reject your defense of avos, I still believe he's the best lead currently, and I'd say your defense of him is, if anything, more damning.

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Post  TD260 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:40 pm

Wait, what's this about amaterasu?
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Post  Doctor Shulk on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:42 pm

Hmmmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.

I'm surprised that DRTJR would be like 'okay you win that's my role', I mean what? Still, what the heck is Avos even up to? I'm kind of sitting here staring blankly at my screen in confusion.

I'll look over it more when I'm a little more awake but for now I'm kind of suspicious.

@TD: that's basically what DF softclaimed in the previous dayphase.
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Post  nn8n on Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:00 pm

SurgePox wrote:Okay, thank you DF for confirming any thoughts I had as to who is mafia this game.
This is what I'm confused about, you just said that I was the one suspicious for being so sure who a mafia is, now you go and do the same thing...

SurgePox wrote:First of all, the arguement that amaterasu being a good character in fluff does not necessitate them being a town aligned class. Roles borrowed from other games have to have their alignments or other characterists tweaked for balance purposes. More often than not, the most creative roles are town roles, leaving the host of allstars the task of balancing some roles over in one direction or the other. I don't base arguements or logic on fluff, I look for actual gameplay, and right now, it's pointing me towards you and avos...
It is because of this balancing that makes me know that the Amaterasu role is town aligned. If you go to Game 13 it was in, it would be way too overpowered to be switched to a mafia ability.

Even though DRTJR's ability was town aligned in Game 11, I for one think that if Q had to re-balance characters to get more Mafia than it makes sense that he would do this with a forum based character to get more Avalanchians to be a group to even have them be the threat to the game.

SurgePox wrote:...who you defended, and I'd say with faulty logic. You claim that his pulling his vote off of you necessitates that the two of you are innocent, but that's affirming that 1. you are innocent, which is not a given, and 2. that only townies are quick to switch votes and 3. in a game with wide timezone variance, the timing of pulling your votes is indicitive of who is more on board with arguements presented.

We can't assume that you are necessarily innocent, even in light of your claim, for reasons presented above. The core reason why that arguement is wrong, though, is Avos quickswitching his vote is not a necessary condition of him being a townie. Mafians may vote for comrades early so that in the even that comrade goes down, they look good for having been one of those who voted them down. When there was a chance for the vote to get peeled off of you, that would be the ideal time for the mafian comrade to move their vote, to start momentum in their favor. If anything, I'd say the maneuver that you presented is more indicative of a mafian/mafian relationship between you and avos, and not a townie reacting to another townie, but I think it's really an entirely moot point because people vote when they are online, and with an international community, that widely varies. The first to vote is just whoever was online, we aren't all viewing the thread simultaneously.

So, I'm forced to reject your defense of avos, I still believe he's the best lead currently, and I'd say your defense of him is, if anything, more damning.
I will say that this is good logic that the vote switching cannot be used to help validate a point. You are correct that with it being a multi-timezone format that it would be impossible to gauge something based on timing.

I did that string of quotes in my last post to bring all the arguments I've had together in one fell swoop to help clear up any confusion. Didn't mean to sound snide but you know I can overreact when on the fly.

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Post  DarkFalco on Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:21 pm

So you think i'm mafian because i'm protecting avos? Now hold on a second there. Whenever Q believed someone to be innocent everyone followed and believed him. It seems to me that you and others refuse to believe me in part because i'm not normally an in your face, trying hard to win player. I just thought i'd make a change of pace this game and try a little harder. Another thing, do you think i'd make such a rookie mafian move as to protect someone on a sinking ship? Most people on here know when to bail when they play mafians in mafia, and well that time is already past. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out there in such a case. It's too risky for a mafian to do, and quite frankly really risky for a townie as well. I know i'm teetering on the verge here, and i'll do my darnedest to help out and to get you guys to believe what is true.

I"m pretty sure of who i can call townie, though the list is rather small as of now. right now though you're not on it surge. you say something about me doesn't sit well with you, well i'll tell you something about you isn't sitting well with me either. You have a tendency to be a big player in these games, whether you're townie or mafian. And you're good at it to. You have a tendency to be able to find small things and twist them and make them seem like a big deal when you're a mafian. It seems to me that you're trying to do that to me right now. Also in response to your claims. They too have their holes and flaws.

1. amaterasu as a possible bad guy. I really don't see how Q could twist this character into being a mafian. needless to say i'm not. To me it seems that Q has a tendency to keep characters in their proper alignment and finding characters to fit the bill for each, instead of overly messing with them.

2. I am innocent, i don't know what else i can do to convince you of this, but name it and i will. So of course it makes sense that avos helping to save my ass would most likely make him townie. I didn't say he quickly switched votes. i just said he was the first to switch. And yes while there are many people in different times zones i bet there were people on before him who didn't post. Hudson mentioned that he had seen my softclaim, yet didn't act on it. Avos was the first person to stick his neck out there, knowing there could be backlash. And lets not forget weldar, the one who turned up townie, was the second one to act in my favor, after being the person to start the wagon on me. He, another big player believed me, so why can't you?

3. the "vote peeling" that would have been pretty damned risky don't you think? Usually mafians pull their vote off after it's certain that the person would be saved, wouldn't you agree? All in all it was pretty apparent to everyone, including myself that i was doomed to hang. And yet some people tried to save me, and someone actually succeeded and i thank them for it.

to me it seems more like you're trying your hardest to twist everyone in to believing i'm mafian instead of hearing me out, kinda a mafian move wouldn't you say?
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Post  Raya on Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:43 pm

I'm slightly drunk and very tired, bear with me a little Razz

Right, looking at the lynch, or lack thereof. DF was leading by one vote, but no player was lynched, and this was actively stated by Q. I think this is implying that someone has a double vote. DRTJR did claim to have a lynch stop, but why would he use it on day 1 to save DF? If they're both mafian even if she had a bloody amazing role he'd save it for himself. That and the lack of a description of a lynch stop in the writeup post- a lynch still happened, but not of a player.

Relm, your tinfoil hat is starting to get a little tiresome. I do find it amusing though that you said I was suspicious because I said I suspected DF and DRTJR but didn't initially vote for either, then in the same post you FoS myself, DRTJR and DF and then don't vote for any.

I'll do a more indepth look after a sleep (it's the early hours here now), but I will admit Avos' certainty of DRTJR's role is rather suspicious. Admittedly his process of elimination seems sound, but Q has said before that he can and will change roles to make the game more balanced, so even with an educated guess you still can't be 100% certain. Avos is actually a pretty good player, so being so certain does seem strange. DRTJR has slunk under the radar pretty damn quick I have to say. Am struggling to keep my eyes open, so will look at TJ and Req's past behaviour in the morning.

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Post  Quaetam on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:14 pm

Vote Tally:
TheTJ(3): DarkFalco, Fedaykin, Requiem
AvosMeLardo(3): td260, Relmitos, Surge
Requiem(1): Camilla
Relmitos(1): AvosMeLardo
Eisen(1): TheTJ
Yet to vote(18): EVERYONE ELSE :<

26/50 hours and 46 minutes remain in the dayphase!
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Post  nn8n on Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:11 pm

As much as you want to thank DRTJR for 'saving' you from lynch he did it out of his own self preservation. He was pretty sure that Mafia are never lynched the first day and that was his only argument that he had the whole first phase. He sent the no-lynch request as soon as he was in the lead and it is a irreversible ability, he had no idea it would save anyone but himself. And why would he not want to have the lynch on him? So we can't prove him wrong that mafia aren't hung on the first day, he didn't want us to know his alignment. If everyone didn't notice I had my vote on him after the first day. Everyone that is wondering why I don't have my vote on him again, we don't know how many times he can use it so we waste more days that could be used toward lynching someone worthwhile.

A game this size is going to have a slew of mafia players, so my list of who are definitely mafia: DRTJR, Surgepox, and Relmitos.
Possible mafia: TD260 and Omicron

Every one of these players are hellbent on trying to convince us that we shouldn't be helping someone with a town based character and ability (DarkFalco) and to try to help her is a scum slip. I'm doing so cause I am following the rules and research on what characters are and trying to think like how I would have set up the game if I was Q. Believe me or not but they are only speculating and trying to make people look bad from spelling errors, and I am quoting facts, real rules, and answers.

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Post  TD260 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:31 pm

...


hold it.

just...

what.

"Every one of these players are hellbent on trying to convince us that we shouldn't be helping someone with a town based character and ability (DarkFalco) and to try to help her is a scum slip."


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that she was confirmed townie. I mean, hell, I could easily say "look at my white robes everyone! I have magic" and softclaim avalanche the doctor from game 17. Doesn't mean that I actually am.


that said, I'm not saying that I'm condemning her. Just that she's not as clear as you seem to believe.


"I'm doing so cause I am following the rules and research on what characters are"

Oh, yay for you. Do you want a gold star? Because obviously the rest of us haven't been doing this at all.

Just you.

Obviously.

and trying to think like how I would have set up the game if I was Q.

Because you can totally predict what Q is going to do. You know him so well, it's almost uncanny.

Believe me or not but they are only speculating and trying to make people look bad from spelling errors, and I am quoting facts, real rules, and answers."

Because you backing up speculation with an existing role totally makes it a fact.

Seriously, you're so sure of yourself, for no reason. What makes your speculation any better than ours?
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Post  SpoonMan Abrams X on Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:51 pm

First, I apologize for being so inactive. When this game started I became super busy with all manner of things, and it's looking to keep up that way til at least next week. I'm still trying to resolve to post more none the less.

After Glancing through all the posts, there's one thing that really bothers me, yet, people seem to keep skirting over concerning DF's lack of lynch;

The Lynch was neither a Tie nor a No Lynch.

There was nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. While skeptics could claim (and I'll admit the thought crossed my mind myself) that nothing being said could still mean that a No Lynch occurred (as some people have suggested a double/power vote or vote control), I really doubt that is the case, since I imagine Q would've said something to that extent.

My personal thoughts are something like a commuter role, a role that can just "remove" a player entirely from a single phase.

EDIT: I'm not gonna make a vote until I can -properly read through the posts and make a decision.
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Post  SnakeInABox on Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:01 pm

My thoughts so far

Quaetam is not Mafian.

Weldar is dead.

I am too.

OR AM I

No the answer is no because I am alive too

However It is worth knowing that Darkfalco is a fuck
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Post  SurgePox on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:08 am

I wrote this before I went to work, so some of it addresses older arguements. I'll be happy to address avos' list of "definently" mafians (hint: it's anyone who is active but not currently agreeing with him) as it becomes prudent. I'll have to stick to just attacking the meat of the arguments: I'll start with Avos' older post:

The balance of the amaterasu role does not necessitate the side it's on. If we're going to be reading into such things, it's worth noting that our lovely host Q has in the past changed roles power levels to fit them in, prime example of which is Game 9's Special Infected role. just because a role would be OP on a given side does not mean that host hasn't changed it to make it fit, which means that the amaterasu role does not necessitate not being mafia.
As for the last point you made, about how your quotes "proves" you're not on his side, you're still missing the point. It's not the intent that is suspect, it's the very existence of the connection that merits investigation. How are you still missing this point? The current question of mine is are you bussing DRTJR.

@DF:
People believed Q when he scumhunted because he made very clear, logical inferences. You are not in the same category as him, you've made illogical, shifty defenses. As far as rookie moves go, yes I absolutely believe anyone can make those moves, I made that move game 18. I know what it's like being in that position, and it really isn't so cookie cutter clear as "well that's a dumb move so I won't make it."

As for your claim that I'm twisting "small things" out of proportion, I addressed your entire argument. Go reread it. I left no stone unturned, there's nothing little about that, the entire basis of your defense was wrong and I called out every piece of it. I'd say it's you who is trying to twist my calling you out into a malicious move on my end. As for your deconstruction of my argument:

1. There's actually two ways, narratively, this would work, even though narrative arguments are really bad becuase we're escaping the core of what mafia is all about, analyzing moves, not fluff.
*A non "badguy" mafia. I've run a lot of games of mafia where, from the narrative, the mafians were good guys. I'm more inclined to go with this one though:
*Q didn't get to pick which roles were submitted. This isn't even debateable, we all know the roles were submitted by hosts. With the roles picked around a helter-skelter assortment of nintendo, homestuck, rp, and anything else, why would you assume there is an easy rhyme or reason as for which roles goes where?
Again though, narrative arguments are bad because we aren't analyzing the actual meat of the game, player moves.
2. You can't just convince people that you're innocent on word, you have to do it on actions, and right now your actions paint you entirely differently than your word. You're defending people early, the most classic scumtell I know of. You CAN'T necessitate that you are innocent and make points off that. No one can (except the cop). Because it's not public domain knowledge. You have to make arguments off of how people maneuver.
3. Not really. If I put myself in the position of a damned mafian, I'd find it pretty easy to imagine myself telling my mafian friends "okay guys, I'm going to make an argument for myself, so don't bus me yet." and have them take their votes off you. I've observed that move being made by Viero in game 19 as host. it's not unreasonable at all. And again, this argument necessitates that you are innocent, which no one short of the cop can do.

If you read only one part of this wall, make it this one:
The most disconcerting thing i've read out of the two of you is this piece:
DarkFalco wrote:to me it seems more like you're trying your hardest to twist everyone in to believing i'm mafian instead of hearing me out, kinda a mafian move wouldn't you say?
This is the single most telling statement here, and suggests the greatest misunderstanding of what I'm trying to get at here. I Neither am trying to convince anyone that you're necessarily of "for sure" mafia (It's fucking day two, no one except the cop and mafia knows who anyone else is "for sure") nor am I not hearing you out. My main point, which I'll punctuate so there is no confusion Is that Avos is the best lynch target that there currently is due to his attack/bus of DRTJR with "concrete" role knowledge, and also DF's direct defense of him, as it's telling of his relationship to these players, and possibly others, but howso is unclear Although I'm inclined to guess that he's mafia, this doesn't necessitate he is. His lynch is not only a good guess, but also telling about the roles of others around him. Is this not sound? Is there anything about this, specifically, my main point, that isn't following through?

I think you and Avos are tied together, and I think lynching one of you will be a good litmus test of the others alignment. fos: DF

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Post  SnakeInABox on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:50 am

But wouldn't you say, Surge?

WOULDN'T YOU SAY

I've figured it out.

All of it.

And now all I can do is wait, and wait, and wait.

Maybe I'll have to wait some more.

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Post  Ansem on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:12 am

I can see cleeeeaaarly now the rain has gone.

Vote: Avos

For very scummy behavior and thinking that you're better than me.
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Post  nn8n on Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:25 am

Ansem wrote:For very scummy behavior and thinking that you're better than me.

I....I never once said I was better than anyone else...and don't think that way at all...

I thought it was the way the game is played, give evidence and state your case to find what you think is mafia. Every bit of information was from what people say and acted and then I did some research to find stuff out. I took a lot of time looking through threads and trying to figure things out and thought people would be thankful.

It's obvious I was wrong. I'm sorry everyone for thinking that I was helping...

If you guys want me to prove anything, if you let me live through this night, I can do the vig kill on DRTJR to at least prove that point...but hey if you don't want to trust me then that is fine also...

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Post  DRTJR on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:07 am

I am Town, I like Living. Ergo VOTE:AVOShis shifty boarding on troll logic throws his valid claims with the cacophony of idiocy he provides.
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Post  Minby_Aran on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:33 am

(Generic inactivity apology, blah blah blah)

Ok, so, as of right now, Avos is acting like both a mafian, and kind of a jerk. I know Mafia is usually played as "Guilty until proven innocent", but not listening to other people's reasoning and rationalizations is a surefire way to miss something important, sometimes something that can even help your case. Avos' blatant disregard for DF's claims make me incredibly suspicious of him, even if I don't think DF is completely in the clear. I think Surge really hit the nail on the head with the bottom part of his post, so I'm going to Vote:Avos
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Post  nn8n on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:55 am

This is Game 17 all over again.

Go ahead and post your cats rolling watermelons out of a lake pics to further humiliate me.

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Post  Ansem on Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:09 am

Ok.

TWBB Mafia Game 20: Those who Challenge Fate-ENDGAME-A Kingdom Worth Living For (Thread 1) - Page 7 A_cat_rolling_a_watermelon_out_of_the_sea
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Post  nn8n on Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:08 am

Minby_Aran wrote:(Generic inactivity apology, blah blah blah)

Ok, so, as of right now, Avos is acting like both a mafian, and kind of a jerk. I know Mafia is usually played as "Guilty until proven innocent", but not listening to other people's reasoning and rationalizations is a surefire way to miss something important, sometimes something that can even help your case. Avos' blatant disregard for DF's claims make me incredibly suspicious of him, even if I don't think DF is completely in the clear. I think Surge really hit the nail on the head with the bottom part of his post, so I'm going to Vote:Avos

Firstly, I admit, I did have one jerky moment, but when have I not acted like a jerk as a townie? I even apologized about it, but if you need to hear it again, I'm sorry Surge, TD, and Relmitos for the 'you can't read comment'

Right now no one is listening to anyone and just planting their own reasoning down and not budging. How have I been disregarding DF's claims when I am the one supporting the fact that she has a very benevolent character, that can be very beneficial to the town!

Surge has been bringing into the game of how DF and I play in the past, but what about him? He got this way when he was after Q in game 18. He only gets this hard charged when he is a mafian. He doesn't care that it was DRTJR that wasted all of Day 1 by stopping the lynch. He is only seeing that DF is possably not town cause any character could have been changed to fit the balance.

I see it this way, there are only two ways to take down a Mafian
    * Lynching, which DRTJR wasted our shot day 1
    * Vigilante, that I now claimed and want to help the town with but DRTJR would rather keep himself alive so that he can stop more lynching to prevent more mafia members from being taken out.


Surge has got everyone so focused on DF and myself that he is now wasting this day (which is a result from DRTJR again, cause none of this would have happened if not for him), that we aren't even trying to go after mafia anymore. Last game all I wanted was discussion about finding mafia, and this game I want the same, but if he wants to continue to rip my post apart and waste more of this day phase...I don't even know how to end this cause it just baffles me completely.

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Post  JohnnyFarrar on Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:18 am

So. Sorry I haven't been posting much. I'm sifting through inside jokes and talk of past games to try and pick out scumminess.

Right off the bat I'd just like to say that I don't trust any PR claims. If I'm right, the majority of people have them, so trying to decide whether or not certain powers would be Mafia powers or Civillian powers or other is just too much of a headache and wastes too much of our discussion. So, if you claim anything, I'm just going to ignore it.

Now, as for actual content
Avos wrote:This is Game 17 all over again.

Go ahead and post your cats rolling watermelons out of a lake pics to further humiliate me.

This post just pushed me over the edge with you. Where I come from we call this AtE (appeal to emotion) and it's an unpopular tactic to try and get people off your case when you have no logical defense. So, with that:

Vote: Avos
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Post  Warchamp7 on Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:31 am

Avos looks scummy, DF looks scummy, but I think Avos just roleclaimed Vig?
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Post  Raya on Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:54 am

So, looking back through the thread...

My main suspicions are lying with DRTJR and Requiem. DRTJR's scummy behaviour last phase has been well noted. He's been acting very out of character this game, and I don't just mean not voting for me. As soon as the heat was off him he's gone extremely quiet, only speaking to speak against whoever is under fire. Requiem has been extremely sheepy. As Relm pointed out he initially voted for someone who's inactive due to being on holiday, then just switching his votes around to whoever is leading at the moment. No particular evidence for it, the reason given is 'oh I want someone to get lynched'. He's contributing to the lynch whilst lying extremely low and not outright attacking people so there's no direct evidence.

Avos...I'm not entirely sure what to make of Avos. His absolutely certainity of DRTJR's role is suspicious, including saying that he *knows* that DRTJR stopped the lynch yesterday. Uh, what evidence of that is there? A lynch still happened, but no player was killed. That and why would DRTJR save DF? Surely it would have been better for someone to simply shift their votes, as myself and No one was running close behind. This is a bit damming, but Avos *is* known for blowing his top when under fire, so I can see him saying things in a temper and not thinking about how it's worded.

However...Avos did softclaim there. I'm not entirely convinced, it seems a bit convienient to claim a role he's becoming famed for, so I'd recommend him putting his money where his mouth is and proving it by naming a target (someone suspicious like DRTJR) and actually taking them out. If it happens, good job, if not, he gets hung.

Vote: Requiem

Due to his sheeping and wanting to see the validness of Avos' claim.

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Post  DarkFalco on Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:07 pm

i agree, surge is amping up a hype for myself and avos. He could be a mafian trying to distract everyone, but i'd like to believe he's a townie doing what he thinks is best. I just happen to disagree with him currently. i don't have a clue if thats really avos's role, but if it is i agree with the above comment. give him the chance and if he proves it let him live. i'm about 90% certain that he's a townie of some sort. Yeah i could be wrong but i feel pretty strongly about it. Surge if you really are a townie we can come to some sort of a compromise. let him live through this day and if he proves his claim let him live. if he doesn't, hang him tomorrow and i'll admit i was wrong. I don't want to distract from the actual scum hunting. However, in the meantime we do need to follow up any other possible leads so as not to waste the day. I am going to go through the thread and see what i can find.
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